Friday, July 24, 2009

Quantum Jesus

First, I would like to say that this post is one of the reasons why I made this blog. I wanted to share ideas like this to people, so that I would both have an outlet for them, and for people to help me develop these ideas further. This particular idea of mine occurred to me quite a while ago, while I was part of a forum discussing religion and philosophy. I decided that an interesting way to explain Christian doctrine would be through scientific principles, and thus, this idea was born. And yes, it's early.

This particular idea of mine will require knowledge of particle-wave duality and the Hypostatic Union. I will explain these in order for my idea to make sense.

Particle-Wave Duality

Particle-wave duality is a tricky concept in quantum mechanics. To explain this phenomenon, I will use the photon, the basic light “particle”. The beginnings for this conflict can be said to be during the 1660s. Sir Isaac Newton established a theory of particle light, which he used to explain reflection. Christiaan Huygens developed a theory of wave light, which he used to explain concepts like diffraction and interference. While this theory worked well enough, due to Newton’s prestige, Huygens’ model was ignored for a while, until it was apparent that Newton’s model was insufficient in explaining diffraction with a particle model of light. Experiments done by Thomas Young and Augustin-Jean Fresnel, like the double slit experiment, only added to the evidence for the Huygens theory of light. Soon enough, his theory of wave light was accepted as the correct one. James Clerk Maxwell and his equations of electromagnetic radiation solidified the wave model of light with concrete evidence, both theoretical and experimental.

However, this model of light could not explain things like the photoelectric effect, and so they were lost, until a little known man named Albert Einstein came along, and using Max Planck’s theory of quantized energy, proposed that light existed in discreet packets of energy (called “quanta”), which can be considered “particles” of sorts. Then scientists were in a dilemma. Einstein’s explanation only works if light is treated as a particle, but only the wave model could explain diffraction and interference. Which was right? Then a scientist named Louis-Victor de Broglie created the de Broglie hypothesis, which states that matter has wave properties as well. After being confirmed by several experiments, scientists needed to find an answer to their problem. When the creation of quantum theory was complete, it was necessary to adopt the consequences of both theories. Therefore, light could only be reasonably explained if it contained properties of waves and properties of particles. Of course, only one of these properties can be seen at any one time, depending on what you are testing for.

Hypostatic Union


The Hypostatic Union is one of the most central doctrines for Christians. It is the official term to denote the nature of Jesus Christ as both fully human and fully divine. This doctrine began in order to explain the nature of Christ. At that time, there were several Christian sects who either believed Christ was only human, only divine, or two entities. The sect we are dealing with, which would become the Roman Catholic/Orthodox and other derivative churches, set up a meeting to define what not only Jesus was, but also other important doctrinal issues. The Trinity was decided to be three realities/persons (hypostases) in one essence (ousia). The idea to apply a similar idea to Jesus first came from Apollinaris of Laodicea. However, his work was seen as somewhat heretical, since he believed that Chirst’s human and divine natures become one hypostasis, one reality. Another thinker, Theodore of Mopsuestia, argued that Christ was instead dual natured, being both human and divine, with two hypostases, or two realities. The Chalcedonian Creed, which was created at the Council of Chalcedon, compromised. Christ was dual natured, but at the same time was one person. He would exist in one reality (hypostasis). With this, the modern doctrine of the Hypostatic Union came about, with Christ being both man and God in one Person, one of the Three Persons of the Godhead.

Quantum Jesus

But how can this be? How can Jesus be both God and man? Isn’t that impossible? Well, this is where quantum physics comes into play. Remember light? Light demonstrates both wave and particle properties; it can be said to be both (Technically, this is not quite right, but the point I’m trying to make applies). If you can consider light being both a particle and a wave, then it also becomes reasonable to see how Jesus can be both a human and a God. Think about it. Jesus exhibits “human” properties like having a physical body, eating, drinking, and having emotions. On the other hand, He also has “God” properties like the power to resurrect people, controlling the weather, knowing future events, and healing. Like light, Jesus exhibits properties from His dual natures. You could say He is the true “God Particle”.

I hope I will at least make you ponder about God and His nature. Also, if you have any corrections on the science/doctrine part, or have any ideas for any future works/improvements on this one, then feel free to comment.

Most of my information came from the various wikipedia pages.

17 comments:

  1. I think the notion of a Christian God that performs miracles to be one of contradiction. But perhaps I will elaborate further on this topic in a future blog post.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Yes, interesting to say the least... obviously we're dealing with analogies here, but I think it could be interesting to keep expanding them.

    ReplyDelete
  3. This is a pretty interesting idea, using quantum physics to help explain the biblical view of jesus as both divine, and human.
    I'd comment more on it, but my knowledge on the subject is quite limited.

    Also, you may find it interesting to take a look at this post from my blog from a little while back, reading your post made me think of it again and while it doesn't deal with the exact same ideas presented here, it does delve a little into the nature of god (and the universe) and may even be an interesting read
    check it out: http://pocketful-of-thoughts.blogspot.com/2009/06/life-universe-and-everything.html

    ReplyDelete
  4. You're exactly the target audience I'm trying to attract! For an idea, tell me a doctrine you don't understand from Christianity, and I'll see if I can make an analogy with science.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hopefully next time you can make an analogy with science that you actually understand?

      Delete
  5. well the trinity thing is still a bit ...out there for, me. for all the good points you make with the connecting it w/particle wave duality it doesn't how he can be both at the same time, because while a particle Can be one or the other, it's not both at the same time

    plus the whole idea of god having children, the original sin (somehow being inherited by all future generations...???) jesus dying to cleanse people's sins (which I'm confused as to how that is if there's still original sin)

    now I realize there's plenty about Christianity that I don't know so i may be incorrect in my assessment of them, but hopefully you'll be able to clarify these things (perhaps with science)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'd recommend reading "The Shack" . . . soon (Mar 3, 2017) to be released as a movie.

      Delete
  6. Which is why I said that technically, it's neither, but if you consider Jesus as a hypothetical existence, with "God" properties, and "human" properties, then like light, which exhibits both particle and wave properties, Jesus exhibits both God and human properties. If you can consider light as both wave and a particle, then you can also conceive Jesus as both God and man. Therefore, you can take it a step further and say that Jesus is both God and man, on account of exhibiting properties of both. (This doesn't work with light, but still)

    Or, if you would like to think of it in a different way, you can superimpose the reality of "God" onto the reality of "man" to get one reality, a "God-man". Almost like how you would superimpose red light to make a laser, for instance.

    Hmm........that is something that will have to wait, although interesting points nontheless. I should warn you, not everything or possibly even the vast majority of Christian doctrine will have no scientific analogy. But I will try my best to find ones for the doctrines that do.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I happened upon your conversation regarding the nature of Jesus in relationship to His Father God. Here is some information, from scripture, that helps explain, with a credit to the website from which it came. Although I don't subscribe to the central doctrines of the website creators, I think it does a good job of clarification in this particular topic. The bottom line, scientifically, in the information below is: Light from Light.
      Genesis 1:2 And God said, Let there be Light, and there was Light
      John 8:42 Jesus proceeded forth from God
      John 13:3 Jesus had come forth from God
      John 16:27 Jesus came out from God
      John 16:28 Jesus came forth from the Father
      John 17:8 Jesus came out from the Father
      1 John 1:5 God is light, and in Him, there is no darkness

      “God of (or from) God” (theon ek theiou). In John 20:28; Romans 9:3, &c., the Redeemer is expressly styled God; and he himself declared, “For I proceeded forth, and came from God” (ego gar ek tou theou exelthon kai eko—John 8:42). “Light of (or from) Light” (phos ek photos). Jesus said, “I am the light of the world” (John viii.8:12): “I proceeded forth, and came from God” (ek tou theou—John 8:42): “God is light” (1 John 1:5). “Very (i.e., true) God of (or from) very God” (theon alethenon ek theou alethenou.” In John 17:3, Jesus says: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God” (ton monon alethenon theon), “and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent:” in Colossians 2:9: “In him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily:” “I proceeded forth, and came from God” (John 8:42); and in 1 John 5:20, we read, “And we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This (or he) is the true God, and eternal life” (autos estin ho alethenos theos, kai he zwn ainos): “Begotten” (Ps. 2:7; John 1:18; 6:46; 10:15), “not made;” for he says, “before Abraham was, I am” (ego ema—John 8:58): see also John 1:1,2; Revelation 1:8; 21:6; 22:8.
      Credit: http://maranathamedia.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1013:he-came-out-of-the-father&catid=118:father-and-son&Itemid=122

      Delete
  7. The scientific community especially those pursuing an explanation of quantum phenomena have made great strides in respect to the paradox of the observer and the observed. From a religious philosophical viewpoint the most plausible explanation of Jesus as a human and as a divine being can be found by Non-Dualistic ("That art Thou") traditions. Jesus spent many years before finding enlightenment and returning to share the great message. However, as it was such a radical shift from the religious paradigm of his times, he was rejected as a false prophet by the religious elite. Jesus had very little time on earth to fully explain his beliefs and those to whom he preached did not have the capacity to understand the concept of quantum physics as we today are still attempting to grasp it. The main point is that quantum is not a principle that can be be physically observed or scientifically measured but can only be individually experienced. We have to understand that Jesus was far beyond the narrow monotheistic thinking that we adopt today.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Quantum Physics is very interesting, and very mind boggling at the same time. I am no physicist, but in my research on the topic what is clear is that Quantum mechanics indicates that time and "reality" are nothing but illusions. Everything is primarily made up of light. It also concludes that until there is an observer, the only thing that exists is a wave of infinite possibilities. Obviously since the beginning of mankind, as choices are made through free-will, a reality has been built and history has been created.

    That being said, time is not actually linear as we perceive it, and in fact does not actually exist. All that time is, is how we experience life from point A to point B, how we piece together the frames of our existence. I've also read articles theorizing that based on Quantum Mechanics and the requirement of an observer to create what we perceive as reality, as we look further and further out into space and observe things, we are actually creating the past. In other words, as something is being observed for the very first time, what was once an infinite wave of possibilities has now become part of our observed reality. Which also goes into the discussion of the age of the earth being a young earth as the Bible tells us. I won't go more into that, but someone put together an interesting study on what they call "Rexitivity" and how it is factual based on all of this and much more that the earth is very young.

    Anyhow, quantum mechanics can definitely explain miraculous healings, walking on water, teleportation, and the resurrection of Christ. In fact, another interesting study is the role of Quantum Mechanics in regards to the Shroud of Turin, Jesus' burial cloth. One physicist that studied the shroud determined that the three dimensional imprint of Jesus on the shroud was created in a condition where gravity did not exist due the plane of the body at the time the image was made. It was during an event horizon, where space and time did not exist, and when he was resurrected, information was instantly sent throughout the universe... it was a universal event. Quantum Mechanics can help us understand why Jesus radiated light when he appeared. The list just goes on and on... You can start with Genesis 1 and throughout the Bible see how Quantum Mechanics fits in perfectly.

    I know I am sort of rambling here a bit, but there is just so much to discuss on this topic that I just wanted to get my thoughts out as quickly as possible. I'm not here to provide the scientifically detailed accounts of these theories, but if you research each of these I've mentioned there is a huge volume of research dedicated to this you can find.

    Bottom line is, Jesus of course fully understood quantum mechanics, and it was able to be communicated for thousands of years throughout the Bible... thousands of years before our modern science is just beginning to understand it. Not only did Jesus understand it, but he could fully harness it. Through quantum mechanics, if you are able to decide that one possibility, say someone getting sick, didn't happen... but instead they avoided that possibility and remained healthy, then someone could be brought into the new reality of being healed. Pretty mind boggling stuff.

    Again, time and reality is only an illusion... and how we experience time from point A to point B is just because we are stuck in this three dimensional existence and this is how our mind pieces together our reality.

    Very exciting time to begin to be able to understand some of these things that are so mysterious.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Know the Holy Spirit, you'll understand Jesus!

    The Scriptures are plain literature without the Hoy Spirit. Seek him, and Quantum Physics will seem a miniature compared to the Wisdom he will bestow upon you guys!

    Cheers!

    ReplyDelete
  10. MAYBE......In the beginning was the word(logos/thought/consciousness). Jesus was also the light of the world, ie that by which all is made known, ie consciousness. Jesus said he was 'the I Am' (before so-and-so was, 'I AM') and your 'I am' is that which makes you aware that you ARE ie consciousness. So jesus knew that his (and everyones) true nature is consciousness. What Jesus said about himself will make much more sense if you entertain the idea that those things also apply to everybody. Where will we find Jesus? Inside everyone of us of course. And what is our most core, fundamental attribute? our I Am, our consciousness. When you look inside and find consciouness that is the light of the world, that is what Jesus knew was his true nature, that is what creates the observable world, that is what you call God and that is also You. So Jesus as the light is not something which you have to wait to find, it is right here, right now, illuminating your very experience of existing. It is so close that you cannot see it, because you ARE it. This is also what primitive cultures referred to as God. You can understand the Hypostatic Union if you don't think of God as a separate discrete entity, in fact don't even think of God at all. I think Jesus was trying to show us there is a fundamental unity/oneness to reality, which is consciousness, but unfortunately the Gospel writers did n't quite get it and used words like God and Father when referring to the unifying field of consciousness.
    Maybe Jesus did not think he was unique, or there was a separate 'God', but knew that neither he, nor you, nor I, are actually people, we just appear to be, because consciousness is imprisoned in association with our body, hence the sign of the crucifixion, which is to destroy the personality/sense of a separate self and thus liberate consciousness (know the truth and it will set you free).
    Don't know what this has got to do with Quantum Physics, apart from repeating other contributors that JC had mastery of quantum stuff and understood that light photons and other fundamental particles obeyed laws that are intrinsically linked with consciousness (which I am suggesting is what Jesus, and us lot, really are)

    ReplyDelete
  11. 2.0 Theological implications related to CE

    O.K . . . . . here are my unproven, speculative, off-the-wall, out-of-the-box, premises regarding CE and its relationship to the fundamentals that underlie all existence. Please note that this diatribe is of my own invention . . . . and it may well be wrong, or inconsistent with your belief paradigm. I believe this is the ‘job’ I was “assigned” when this phase of my perpetual life was initiated. I am simply doing my best to fulfill the assignment. God made me a scientist . . . so get used to it!

    1. Subquantum reality resides within and throughout the space-time continuum. This reality permeates everything . . . all the time . . . . space, matter, subatomic particles, quarks, vacuum, and even other things we have yet to discover. As such, time (and space?) may not exist at the subquantum level; I envision only dynamic energies within a timeless and dimensionless milieu. I guess that greater (higher) dimensions, beyond our experiential 3 spatial dimensions, plus time, is another possibility.

    2. God (as I will call Him), or your individual visualization of Such, originates within the subquantum reality, but since the subquantum reality permeates everything, therefore, so does He.

    3. God is the primal intelligence (Intelligent Designer; or ID, inferred here) or Prime Mover, and is responsible for causal creation and evolution of the universe, whether it be via a singular, Big Bang creative event, or a gentler (by comparison) continuous process.

    4. The observable, material universe (I call it MR) is a transition of subquantal substance (actually, insubstantial!) phenomena, via virtual particles/photons - to real- particles (Ref. The EEMU Hypothesis). Real particles are these funny little doodads (submicroscopic in layman terminology!) that combine and aggregate (according to certain physical laws) to become our material universe . . . eventually evolving all those macroscopic things that we observe - molecules, stars, planets, galaxies, black holes, etc . . . . and, yes . . . US!

    (Remainder: See following blog)

    ReplyDelete
  12. (Remainder of Manssker blog)

    5. God, being subquantal in nature, permeates all of his Creation. As such, He is physically undetectable by His physical creations, or by anything in the material universe. He is spiritual, yet omnipresent and omniscient, since He permeates all that is.

    6. In my opinion (IMO): God, by existing at the subquantum level, does not “see” as we (His living creations) “see”, “hear as we “hear”, or otherwise “sense” as we “sense”. I fantasize (just a gut feeling!) that His purpose in Creating ‘life’ and all of ‘life’s’ sensing attributes, is a process by which God ‘senses’ or ‘experiences’ ALL of his creations, through His living creations. I have not resolved whether this is a “real time” process, or whether it is necessary for living creations to “die” and, via the persisting soul, return all of our experiential sensations to Him, within His subquantal (spiritual) milieu. Nevertheless, it provides us (while living) with a purpose and a reason for living a worthwhile life. It also gives us a possible explanation for evolution (one of God’s process). . . that being to expand our experience (on His behalf) within His ever-expanding universe . . . we, too, must expand.

    7. And, just how has God accomplished all of “this”? God utilizes ‘processes’ that are realized by interaction of certain of God’s (created) mechanisms. One such mechanism is the recently discovered (by us!) Casimir Effect. The CE is a subquantum phenomenon that interacts with matter within the transitional fringes of the quantum level (quantum: “can be quantized, measured, observed”; subquantum: below the threshold for quantization). This somewhat ‘fuzzy’ overlap in subquantum and quantum realities results in (measureable?) mass – subquantum interactions. The tenuous boundary between quantum and subquantum occurs near the Planck Length (scale) (about 1 to the minus 21 exponential power; or, 1 E -21 centimeters for all of you scientific atheists!).

    [A ‘side bar’ here . . . . “Creation and evolution are NOT mutually exclusive; creation is a FACT and evolution is a PROCESS” . . . paraphrased after and old, dear friend (now deceased) Dr. Kirtley Mather (last surviving expert witness at the John Scopes (Monkey) Trial.]

    8. The CE mechanism interacts with ALL matter, both inanimate (inorganic) and animate (organic). The CE is ONE of God’s mechanisms – there are undoubtedly many other such phenomena that we have yet to discover.

    9. The CE mechanism was engaged by God to create life. The time scale is unimportant . . . . it may have taken 1 – 6 days (God’s “time”) or millions of years.

    10. God utilized CE to interact with inanimate clay particles. In otherwise inanimate, dielectric
    clays, interstitial clay platlets spacings (3-12 microns) are consistent with the scale at which
    the CE nominally operates. Clays have also been demonstrated to preferentially contain
    interstitial water and other hydrated (e.g., with carbon, potassium, nitrogen, sulfur, etc.)
    molecules. Consider for a moment that such ‘organic-rich’ clays are affected, or
    modulated, by CE forces. If the CE forces are indeed manifest, or controlled directly, by the
    Intelligent Designer, the result of such interactions may well have initiated creation of
    DNA/RNA progenitor molecules (life). By successive, directed CE modulation of these progenitors over time (I call this “evolution”), we finally (for now) arrive at our current level of evolutionary development. Bear in mind that this phenomenon is not static (we will continue to evolve, IMO!) . . . it is a dynamic, ever-progressing process that strives toward God’s intended goals.

    ReplyDelete
  13. BTW: Email me at: wlminex@msn.com and I'll send you more of my diatribes; perhaps visit my webpage at: https://sites.google.com/site/eemuhypothesis/

    W. Mansker, Ph.D.

    ReplyDelete